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#1 2009-03-19 13:55:49

j3h
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Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

heads up!

Comic Book Resources wrote:

a new watchmen?

Check back with CBR News on Friday for a new interview with Grant Morrison, where he discusses “Seaguy: The Slaves of Mickey Eye,” and some other projects he’s currently writing for DC Comics including one book about the Multiverse and a second in the vein of “Watchmen” featuring the heroes of Earth-Four, who are all former Charlton Comics characters.


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#2 2009-03-19 14:23:31

Izzy O' Toole
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

oooh, Interesting.


What would Rudolph say?

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#3 2009-03-19 22:59:20

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

I was coming over to post this same info - my reaction is "Holy crap!" 

With Morrison, I'm a bit trepidatious, but I wonder just how "in the vein of 'Watchmen' "it really is.  Either way, there's no way vic isn't going to get some good page time!

I'm officially excited!

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#4 2009-03-20 00:29:18

Flash1087
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

This could go either way, but I assume I'd read it regardless. Funny how the Watchmen movie just came out, huh guys?

Wasn't this sort of hinted at in interviews waaaaaay back when 52 finished? I seem to remember someone at DC using almost that exact same phrasing to describe such an event.


"RAND PROTECT US! THAT'S THE BEE'S KNEES!"-Mistah A

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#5 2009-03-20 00:52:58

?
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Flash1087 wrote:

This could go either way, but I assume I'd read it regardless. Funny how the Watchmen movie just came out, huh guys?

Wasn't this sort of hinted at in interviews waaaaaay back when 52 finished? I seem to remember someone at DC using almost that exact same phrasing to describe such an event.

I think I remember reading something like that as well.....


Who are you?

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#6 2009-03-20 09:41:09

blazingwhitemask
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Registered: 2008-10-07
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

hmmm...
Grant Morrison? I'm a little iffy on his work. Some of it is fantastic and the other is just.. meh. Batman RIP didnt do anything for me. Especially the whole Thomas Wayne, sex and drug addict deal... ew-yuck!


The Question (Vic Sage) + Batman (Bruce Wayne) + Catwoman (Selina Kyle) + Huntress (Helena Bertinelli) = ONE KICK ASS TEAM!

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#7 2009-03-20 09:48:44

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

When they say "in the vein of" Watchmen, and considering Morrison's work with Batman and "Final Crisis", it makes me think they're going to let Morrison play with the Earth-4 characters in a more self-conscious statement about comics itself and that he'll continue to fuck around with the medium the way he did in "Final Crisis".  Let's hope it makes more sense this time.  As much as "Watchmen" was a comment on the medium, it was also a very *well crafted dramatic narrative!*

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#8 2009-03-20 13:00:58

Mr.A
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Well, to be honest I've read very little by Morrison. I hear he's a genius and all, so I hope he can do right by Vic! Plus, in my opinion, some Vic is better than no Vic.


The world spins mad. The people are so intoxicated by luxury they forget everything that makes us more than house pets. Reason. Truth. Justice. Freedom. The human spirit is a shattered pane of glass – wrapped in soft velvet and soaked in sugary poison.

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#9 2009-03-20 14:57:15

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

From the Comic Book Resources interview today  (3/20):

"... there’s a Multiverse book that I’m working on. It will probably take forever because the book is quite difficult to write. I’ve been spending a lot of time on it. I’ve just been doing an Earth Four book, which is the Charlton characters but I’ve decided to write it like “Watchmen.” [laughs] So it’s written backwards and sideways and filled with all kinds of symbolism and because of that it’s taking quite a long time to write. So there will be a Multiverse series coming out but that will be in 2010 or the middle of 2010."

Last edited by NoFaceGuy (2009-03-20 14:58:14)

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#10 2009-03-20 17:22:15

Eric
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Somehow I missed this yesterday. My mind is boggling.

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#11 2009-03-22 00:05:12

Flash1087
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Mr.A wrote:

Well, to be honest I've read very little by Morrison. I hear he's a genius and all, so I hope he can do right by Vic! Plus, in my opinion, some Vic is better than no Vic.

Read Morrison's run on Animal Man, and then talk to me about it. That right there is a pretty good indicator of Grant Morrison on his A game. If you like his Animal Man stuff, odds are you'll like Morrison. If not, at least you know.


"RAND PROTECT US! THAT'S THE BEE'S KNEES!"-Mistah A

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#12 2009-03-22 20:40:51

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Since Morrison likes comic book history, maybe he'll name his Earth-4 series "Sentinels of Justice"...

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b58/drakeb3005/burroughs/charlton.jpg

Last edited by NoFaceGuy (2009-03-23 13:21:45)

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#13 2009-03-23 15:11:38

TheAnswer
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Hurm. Must investigate further...


"The answer is meaningless without the question" - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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#14 2009-03-23 19:10:22

NotNamedJohn
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Oh man, I hope not... I really didn't like the Sentinels of Justice comic at all.  The plot was poor and the Question didn't act much like himself in it.  Then again, provided Morrison writes the series well (ie writes it like he always seems to write things), I don't think I'd care about the cheesy name.


"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." - Ayn Rand
"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it." - Ayn Rand

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#15 2009-04-03 20:40:00

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Interesting that three of the four "Sentinels" pictured above are getting their own backup features soon (in name if not the actual characters)

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#16 2009-04-06 11:01:19

Byrd68
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

I also hear (and state with conviction) that Morrison is a genius.  I think that the travesty that is Final Crisis and it's Bat-cousin that is Batman R.I.P. might find it's failures in DC's management and editorial staff rather than Morrison,  if what I've pieced together is true.

Morrison's Final Crisis could have been for Marvel what Bendis' Secret Invasion was to Marvel.  Both stories have roots that go way back, though Bendis' seems to be better intergrated into the greater Marvel U than Morrison's was at DC.

I could be mistaken, but I think that DC fell down on the job with Morrison's grand vision, and he would be justified in taking the same track as Alan Moore.  I don't think he will though, he loves the playground too much.

That being said, I don't know if he'd go in the same direction as Watchmen.  Look at his body of work, he's just as likely to take a classic voice with the characters as he is a revisonist, in fact probably more so.

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#17 2009-04-30 16:38:46

NoFaceGuy
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Morrison spills on the Earth-4 project:

http://www.weeklycrisis.com/2009/04/mul … men-2.html

I'm definitely disappointed about The Question (and Earth-4) being in only one issue of this event, and I am a little apprehensive about the "Spiral Dynamic" characterization, but hey, beggars can't be choosers, right?

Last edited by NoFaceGuy (2009-04-30 16:40:25)

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#18 2009-05-01 12:50:52

Flash1087
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

It's better than nothing, although this sort of keeps with a tradition long held in The Question: other than Darwyn Cooke, sort of, NOBODY ANYWHERE wants to write for a Randian Question. Which sort of baffles me. Nothing against O'Neil or anyone, but The Question was created to espouse a very specific viewpoint, and nobody but Ditko really cares to follow that.

Spiral Dynamics is kind of an interesting philosophy, though. I'd like to see what Morrison does with it.


"RAND PROTECT US! THAT'S THE BEE'S KNEES!"-Mistah A

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#19 2009-05-04 19:20:05

Mr.A
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Man, I could probably go on for ages about this, so apologies in advance if I get a bit ranty here: as I've said before, what O'neil did with the Q? bugs the hell out of me. Now, I'm not saying he didn't pull off a few well written stories here and there, he certainly did. But the way that he took a character with a VERY clearly defined philosophy and literally brainwashed him just strikes me as all kinds of wrong. The real kicker is the way the editorial page makes the claim that the Ditko Question "never had enough time to have a philosophy to begin with". For goodness sake! Ditko was many things, but subtle he most certainly wasn't. I really don't see how you can read any of Ditko's Q? and not see that there's a very clear opinion being argued there. It's like taking Codename V and saying "Hmm, he's a pretty cool character, but does he HAVE to be an Anarchist? I mean, he was only an Anarchist in that one miniseries of his..."
Honestly, I  have to blame the writer's own political bias. It's just a shame that too few people are willing to write about a character they don't agree with without making him or her into an absurd straw-man caricature.


The world spins mad. The people are so intoxicated by luxury they forget everything that makes us more than house pets. Reason. Truth. Justice. Freedom. The human spirit is a shattered pane of glass – wrapped in soft velvet and soaked in sugary poison.

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#20 2009-05-05 07:40:37

Mr.F
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Well, my 2 cents.

One great thing about The Question, for me, is that every version of him brings new concepts that reimagine the caracter. He could still be the same that Ditko created, and that would be great, i love the original take, but isnt it great to see those updates?

The Question represents to me "questioning" everything, including himself. I don´t know any other character that has been reimagined so many times and changed that much always with something deep to make us think about the world.

Ditko´s original version is there, great new stories could be still being written on that take, but i kinda like he is in the past. It preserves that version form bullshit stories that could have been written with him. The same can be said about any other version of The Question.

Let´s see this new Question, let´s keep questioning everything.  smile

P.S.: Sorry bout some bad english i might have wrote. I hope i made my ideia clear anyway.

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#21 2009-05-05 07:48:31

Mr.F
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

One more thing.

Looks like Morrison´s ideia is to create a possible start for new series with those Earth´s. He did something like that on "7 soldiers", but i think none of the books where sucssesfull enough to keep on...

I hope that experience counts now on how to create a start that makes people wanting more, and his earth 4 (includind The Question) could see more issues after that.

This "Watchmen plot" will make a lot of people read the book, if he makes it real good, maybe we can hope for a new ongoing title with Vic Sage on it.

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#22 2009-05-07 16:56:06

Flash1087
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Actually, I'd be really okay with that. If this can evolve into some sort of Earth 4 ongoing, or even just a mini-series about that Earth, I'd be pretty jazzed.


"RAND PROTECT US! THAT'S THE BEE'S KNEES!"-Mistah A

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#23 2009-05-19 23:39:26

NotNamedJohn
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

@Mr.A: Well, this is just me: I don't see him as having been brainwashed in the O'Neil stories, merely as having a near-death experience, which quite often shatters one's perceptions of reality.  It's actually a pretty common occurrence; traumatic events call into question a lot of peoples' basic beliefs and ideals.  Personally, I find O'Neil a far superior storyteller than Ditko, regardless of their philosophical differences.  I mean, let's face it... Ditko's original Question back-up and Mysterious Suspense weren't very deep, insightful, or good examples of storytelling at all.  I mean, I do enjoy reading Objectivist literature, but when it comes to fiction, Objectivism is shit for writing with.  Personally, I think it's because Objectivism is full of shit.  Rand touts Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction in her book "Atlas Shrugged," and yet, the idea of any kind of sacrifice being bad contradicts something one of her very own Objectivist characters (Dagny Taggart, I believe) stated earlier in the novel.  Ultimately, both the "good guys" and the bad guys in Atlas Shrugged were the worst kind of people imaginable, just for slightly different reasons.  The only good instance of Objectivism in literature, ironically, features what a lot of Objectivists consider to be a crazy version of themselves: Rorschach from Watchmen.  Aside from his occasionally a little bit bigoted remarks and his hypocrisy in calling rape a moral lapse, he embodies the ideal perfectly and is also, while possibly crazy, perfectly sane and capable of telling right from wrong.

What we all have to realize, though, is Objectivism uses the "virtue of selfishness" and the idea that any kind of sacrifice, whether self-sacrificing or sacrificing others, is wrong.  Something completely contradictory to the idea of superheroism in the first place.  Unless Ditko was just saying he was Objectivist and really meant "f**k you, Ayn Rand."  What but a sense of moral duty would drive them to heroism in the first place?  If they didn't have that sense, as Rand suggests they shouldn't because morality is only about self-preservation, then they should not be superheroes at all.  On the surface, Objectivism seems pretty on the level.  It's logic and intelligence is only skin-deep though, and more often than not can only be applied successfully to business; try applying some of it to other areas of interest and it falls apart like a stack of Jenga blocks without a steady foundation.

I have to say, though Spiral Dynamics is interesting, it's not really that good for being applied to superheroes, so I can't say I'm exactly thrilled that Morrison is applying it to the Question.  Also can't say I'm thrilled about the Watchmen approach.


"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." - Ayn Rand
"Rationality is the recognition of the fact that nothing can alter the truth and nothing can take precedence over that act of perceiving it." - Ayn Rand

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#24 2009-05-22 22:57:54

Mr.A
A = Mr. A
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Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

NotNamedJohn wrote:

@Mr.A: Well, this is just me: I don't see him as having been brainwashed in the O'Neil stories, merely as having a near-death experience, which quite often shatters one's perceptions of reality.  It's actually a pretty common occurrence; traumatic events call into question a lot of peoples' basic beliefs and ideals.

Fair enough. I still feel like Vic slowly being influenced by zen thought over time would have been more interesting than getting the crap kicked out of him, then carting him off to a secluded location where he is re-educated and pretty much totally accepts a new set of ideals with comparatively little questioning. A dialogue between Objectivist Vic, Zen Richard Dragon and the classical thinking Tot would have been a much more provocative series to me.

 

NotNamedJohn wrote:

Personally, I find O'Neil a far superior storyteller than Ditko, regardless of their philosophical differences.  I mean, let's face it... Ditko's original Question back-up and Mysterious Suspense weren't very deep, insightful, or good examples of storytelling at all.

For the time, I think those stories border on revolutionary. When the Joker was back to playing pranks on Batman and Spider-Man was proving that even a super-powered teenager still has trouble talking to girls, Vic was investigating murders and letting men drown in sewers rather than saving them. Corporate corruption, "real crime" was something most super-hero comic writers of the late 1960's wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and even fewer would have chosen to create a character with such an unpopular and politically overt cause. I think it was Alan Moore who said that one of the reasons he respected Ditko was that even though Mr. Moore personally despised Ditko's cause, at least he had one.

NotNamedJohn wrote:

I mean, I do enjoy reading Objectivist literature, but when it comes to fiction, Objectivism is shit for writing with.  Personally, I think it's because Objectivism is full of shit.

What, are you kidding me?! I think "Watchmen" easily proves that a good writer can have an absolute field day with an Objectivist character. The themes of good and evil, corruption, the indomitability of the human will, the conflict between the needs of society and the rights of the individual...that's a freakin' dream come true for a writer to explore!
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the point you're making here: are you saying that a story arguing for Objectivism would be difficult to write in an interesting way? Because then I'd argue that this could be applied to pretty much any set of political and philosophical ideals. "V for Vendetta" would be boring if V was a nice guy who only used violence as a last resort and saved the day in the end based purely on his virtue as a debater. What makes that story, and stories like it interesting is the dialogue going on: we have to ask ourselves, if given the choice between freedom in the form of chaos and order and the expense of morality, which do we go with?
 

NotNamedJohn wrote:

Rand touts Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction in her book "Atlas Shrugged," and yet, the idea of any kind of sacrifice being bad contradicts something one of her very own Objectivist characters (Dagny Taggart, I believe) stated earlier in the novel.  Ultimately, both the "good guys" and the bad guys in Atlas Shrugged were the worst kind of people imaginable, just for slightly different reasons.

Lemme get back to this later. I've got a certain amount of trouble with Rand both as a writer and as a person, even though I like a lot of her ideas.
 

NotNamedJohn wrote:

The only good instance of Objectivism in literature, ironically, features what a lot of Objectivists consider to be a crazy version of themselves: Rorschach from Watchmen.  Aside from his occasionally a little bit bigoted remarks and his hypocrisy in calling rape a moral lapse, he embodies the ideal perfectly and is also, while possibly crazy, perfectly sane and capable of telling right from wrong.

That character is the best argument for objectivism I've ever encountered. While some of his mindset is left deliberately fuzzy (I personally interpret "rape as a moral lapse" to mean that Rorschach assumed that Hollis Mason's book was an exaggeration and that the Comedian's actions were no where near as brutal as they really were), the fact that he is the one of the only super-hero characters in the book with anything resembling a sane moral code goes a long way. He is an illustration of how, when faced with a world where even some of our most basic assumptions are easily shattered, you can still choose to see the difference between good and evil.

NotNamedJohn wrote:

What we all have to realize, though, is Objectivism uses the "virtue of selfishness" and the idea that any kind of sacrifice, whether self-sacrificing or sacrificing others, is wrong.  Something completely contradictory to the idea of superheroism in the first place.  Unless Ditko was just saying he was Objectivist and really meant "f**k you, Ayn Rand."  What but a sense of moral duty would drive them to heroism in the first place?  If they didn't have that sense, as Rand suggests they shouldn't because morality is only about self-preservation, then they should not be superheroes at all.

Now, here's a problem I have with Rand right here. She was, in the purest sense of the word, a reactionary. She was reacting to her family's suffering at the hands of the Bulsheviks, and I think what prompted her to sit down and come at the whole of morality from a completely different angle was the way that, when she got to the west, she kept running in to people who thought that Communism had a sound moral foundation, even though it has always led to the suffering of the people it is supposed to help. 
So she started off with this concept of the "virtue of selfishness" and she keeps hammering home how important it is to be selfish, when in fact I think the term is inaccurate, it's associations are unhelpful to what the real driving force is. "Moral self-interest" would be a better term (who said this again? Was it Adam Smith or am I just pulling names out of a hat here?). It is not so much that one can never help another person under Objectivism, but rather that when one does help another, one understands why they did it. You do not help an old lady across the street because you are some kind of non-entity which only exists to be a servant to others, you help an old lady across the street because you are invested in mankind, because you respect your elders, because, FOR YOU, this is the right thing to do, and you could not live with yourself if you did not do what was right.
It's the same with Vic, and Mr. A, and Rorschach: they do not have any abilities beyond those of normal human beings, no supposed "great power" that entails "great responsibility". Vic goes out and beats the crap out of villains and solves mysteries because he likes it, and he doesn't want to live in a world where people let scum tear society apart due to apathy and naivete. He doesn't wonder, like Spider-man, whether or not he's a true altruist, he knows he isn't, and he doesn't let it bother him, because he knows altruists are just as capable of truly atrocious acts as anyone else.

NotNamed John wrote:

On the surface, Objectivism seems pretty on the level.  It's logic and intelligence is only skin-deep though, and more often than not can only be applied successfully to business; try applying some of it to other areas of interest and it falls apart like a stack of Jenga blocks without a steady foundation.

Well, here I can't honestly debate with you. As far as I know there is no Objectivist police force out there, and I can't think of any instances in real life where any Objectivist-influenced individual has had some kind of important role besides in business. I plead ignorance.


NotNamedJohn wrote:

I have to say, though Spiral Dynamics is interesting, it's not really that good for being applied to superheroes, so I can't say I'm exactly thrilled that Morrison is applying it to the Question.  Also can't say I'm thrilled about the Watchmen approach.

I've never encountered Spiral Dynamics before, so I'll be interested just to learn a bit about it from Morrison's perspective.


The world spins mad. The people are so intoxicated by luxury they forget everything that makes us more than house pets. Reason. Truth. Justice. Freedom. The human spirit is a shattered pane of glass – wrapped in soft velvet and soaked in sugary poison.

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#25 2009-05-23 05:54:15

ryumega
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2007-05-06
Posts: 58

Re: Grant Morrison writing Vic Sage?!?

Well spoken Mr. A. I would like to throw in my two cents.

My personal feelings towards Vic becoming zen was because it was the 80's and the eastern mythism was in full swing. The O'Neil series reeks of 80's influence (the mullet, the muscle shirt etc.). I'm an advocate for Objectivist Question but I find him usually too critical and actually enjoyed the 52 version in the beginning were the zen was down played.

Another good example of a objectivist story is Bioshock.

I liked Frank Miller's take on the Question and Darwyn Cooke.

I've read "We the Living" and I've come to the conclusion of Rand being very opinionated and shaped by her time in Russia. Her idea of selfishness is not new and reminds me a lot of the arguments laid out by Thomas Hobbes and John Locke. Hobbes thought humans were inheritantly selfish and needed a higher authority to deal with them. Locke thought along the same lines but gave humans more credit and said we really only need authority to make sure we don't steal each others things which, some say, lead to Libertarianism.

My favourite version of Question is by far the Bruce Timm Justice League Verstion. He was modern, rand like, and a touch of mulder. Just the right type of crazy.


"Professional liar and avid miss-speller"

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